Your definition "Easy", "Normal", "Hard" -> Ruins of Nuowu

    I want to start a similar discussion then on reddit, where people discussing if the Ruins of Nuouwu Normal Raid is to hard, bugged (hardmode accidentaly patched in), or fine.


    So first what does (Drill), Easy, Normal, Hard content for you means?


    For me it very straightforward (blindfooled = don't watch any guide, dungeon codex or youtube, no spoilers)

    • Drill: aka Solo Story mode: just the story which you do without party, you go in blindfooled and clear it first try or 2nd/3rd try if u never played an mmorpg before.
    • Easy: aka Casual mode: you go in with public groups, blindfooled, who need the minimum gear requirement to enter the dungeon and u beat it first try, some people might die during the boss encounter but overall the group can beat it without knowing a single boss mechanic, just dodging some of the red areas. (Even if u facetank the red areas, u still survive, but healer need to heal up) ->requires only knowledge on how to attack/what is the class dmg spell
    • Normal: you go in with public group or premade group, and already read some key mechanics of the boss, you dodge all red circles but might fckup some other mechanics. If 1-2 people die and dont get revived the dungeon should still be possible. And not if one DPS die its instawipe cause DPS check cannot reached. if 7 out of 10 people play it almost perfectly and survive the dungeon should be a clear and not a wipe! ->requires knowledge on the deadly boss attacks, and how to play your class
    • Hard: almost not possible with public group unless outgearing the raid, you go with premades, everyone know all mechanics and if 1 person dies you have to battleress them else the DPS check cannot reached. 1 Blade resonance buff is required to clear dps check.->requires knowledge on all boss attacks, how to play your class, and 80% BIS gear + full talisman sockets.

    Example Boss which i would say are perfect/best balanced for the difficulty:

    Drill: -> 100% fine with battle companion

    Easy: -> Jade Palace 3rd boss, 5th Boss, Wave in Tempest

    Normal: -> Jade Palace 1st boss +4th + 5th, Wave in Tempest, Horror if Huaixia


    --------------------------------------------------------

    Bosses that should get adjusted:

    • Jadepalace Normal:
      • 2nd boss:NERF dmg: its a bit to much, that if one person(tank) doesnt know and play the mechanic perfectly the whole group haveing a super hard time. -> AOE dmb "explosion" should have less dmg and not beeing a 2shot. make it deal 30% dmg instead of 50-60%
      • 3rd boss:BUFF dmg: the lazers feels bugged, u can stay afk in them and get like 5% dmg lol -> buff the lazers! If u stay in the lazers u should get 40% dmg
      • 6th boss:NERF dps check/BUFF dmg mechanics: its hard to tell. jade palace is designed for item level 55+ of course if everyone is 65+ the dps check is not a problem anymore. i would still nerf the dps check, or just make the enrage timer 9 minutes. At the same time the "Thunderstorm raind" should be adjusted. Above 50% HP it should deal a bit more dmg, so people dont facetank, the bubble phase at 50% should get dmg increased a bit too, you should focus 100% on dodging and not cheesing dmg while getting hit by few bubbles.
    • Ice world:
      • not sure yet, the fight is fun and challanging - its fine for ilvl 65+, maybe change the tooltip to ilvl 70+, so people be more prepared.
    • Ruins of Nuwou:
      • NERF: For a normal mode the dps check is to scary, the difficulty from the dungeon should be the mechanics, and not "Lets cherry pick and only recruit people ilvl 70+ who has BIS items and play "meta build" to get high dps. -> Nerf the Boss HP by 10% -> lower the required DPS from 4100 to 3660.

  • Azula

    Added the Label Dungeons & Raids
    Quote from Nellan

    I hope the devs will never listen to this,the games is already easy...making it easier will remove any respect i have left for the brains behind the raid design at all.Please do not listen to bad players.


    The casuals are those, that doesnt even have time/bother to create a forum account and suggest feedback, they just play the game and "eat what they get", if they dont like it, they play other game.



    yes only listen to the hardcore progress players, until the casuals which are like 90% of the mmorpg market audience left. then u can play alon on an empty server..


    If u want hard content wait for Extreme mode...





    And spoiler






    it has a reason why Extreme mode has no extra gear or better gear drops, and people doesnt do it that often in china, its basically just an archivement to push your ego and say "i cleared extreme", there is no special Gear that drop in extreme.

    Have you and your group tried to get good ? Extreme doesn't drop gear correct.
    Easy mode was already made specifically for the west since chinese players do put effort into learning the game and getting good which alot of westeners clearly do not if you struggle to clear the current normal modes which are still a joke in comparison to upcoming content.

    Alot of the time so far in this game the issue was the person in front of the screen and not the game :)

    Well idk about Jade Palace we did it somehow on gear lvl 60 and its was playable. Same we did with all new raids, like if u need 55 u go with 60, if u need 60 its kinda made for gear lvl 65, same as new raids. Ice World which is actually World of Pain, bcs idk how it must be playable on lvl 65 gear, if u need run, dodge, make some dps(heal) and all of this shit with enrage, this must be fixed, this is not even normal mode its hard mode. Even if they fixed 4th boss in Jade Palace which was kinda OK when everyone got the point of catching teammates. But new raids its like OMG… i hope it will be fixed.

    Quote from Embxrrxss

    Well idk about Jade Palace we did it somehow on gear lvl 60 and its was playable. Same we did with all new raids, like if u need 55 u go with 60, if u need 60 its kinda made for gear lvl 65, same as new raids. Ice World which is actually World of Pain, bcs idk how it must be playable on lvl 65 gear, if u need run, dodge, make some dps(heal) and all of this shit with enrage, this must be fixed, this is not even normal mode its hard mode. Even if they fixed 4th boss in Jade Palace which was kinda OK when everyone got the point of catching teammates. But new raids its like OMG… i hope it will be fixed.

    yeah both newd raids need adjustments.. they are only normal modes. they should be doable if u know the instawipe mechanics..


    and for the "get good" guys. no. this is a video game, u play to have fun.. this is not a job or esport or anyhting.. if u need to get good before playing a video game its a bad video game. People want relax and have fun, not study 20 google docs and 10 youtube videos before they go into a raid.. SOme gamers nowdays are just sitting in their progress bubble... Get out of the bubble...


    The raid would still be challanging without enrage timers at all.. but failing a dungeon only cause some people prefer to play their build over the meta build is horrible game design and toxic... you want all summoners to force on Beavers since mingshi cant reach the numbers?... no! leave my mingshi alone!

    Has nothing to do with prefered or meta builds.

    Every build and class is more than capable of dealing enough damage to clear current raid content.

    All it takes is a little effort to actually understand what you have to do.

    I‘m playing Spellsword and actually tried the melee spec for the first time yesterday, never even touched it before and it took me 10 minutes of watching a guide and 20 minutes practicing my rotation at the dummy to reach the same DPS as with ranged spec, which is around 4.5k at current raid content.


    If you‘re not willing to put 30 minutes of effort into your class, then you are probably a burden to your raid group and should not clear harder content, since that‘s what it takes to clear it: at least a little effort.


    And there is plenty of other „fun activities“ that you can do in this game without putting effort into it and also other ways to progress with your gear, just a bit slower..sometimes not even slower, since droprate sucks lmao.


    Raid content is SUPPOSED to be harder, so that you have to put at least a little effort into it, although it‘s already easy enough and if you don‘t want to do that, nobody‘s forcing you to do it.

    Oh Boy, what are you gonna do when Hard Modes release?

    Not even gonna take 2 hours After release until the first snowflakes are gonna cry for a nerf.

    Lol read guide or watching YouTube, what about find out right build urself? Or its just to hard that’s why all ppl just mehm i need to think bruh its to hard so i can just google it. Wow this is looks really fun.
    Btw why than they fixed 4th boss in Jade Palace it wasnt that hard, after 4 hours trying it out for some ppl to understand what to do lol, so its still was possible to do. Ruins of N. or however it calls seems not that hard to do, so its kinda “fine” but still harder than “normal mode”. About Ice World i dont even want to talk its looks like hard mode.
    And about meta builds its somehow true, some builds are able to do more dps as another, that feeling a have aswell. But still didnt try out all of them so not sure. But they also looks balanced to each other. Its all about how u press the buttons xd

    Hardmode raids are supposed to be harder, not Normal raids...


    since thursday, i meet almost 100 different people that tried ruins and iceworld, and not just 1 time, 3-4 hours each day... i whispered some of them, they still not beaten them, me included. And no we not undergeared, everyone is ilvl 70+. Some people even full 75 with level 2 talismans.We know the boss mechanics, even in sleep already, so often we tried... but knowing alone doesnt matter, everyone in the group needs full concentration so they dont make a single mistake... guess everyone need some energy drink or other "stuff" to get on 200% concentration.. We even watched the replay to see which dmg the moves make, and where we fail... We fail the dungeon cause of dps check, technical issues (ping/fps) and concentration issues, not cause we dont know how the dungeon works....


    It doesnt matter, ... Its a shit design that the dungeon is designed around all people need stay alife. If one person dies its autowipe.


    And humans and machines make mistakes... if 1 person has a lagspike, fps drop, miss to dodge aoe its over... this is not normal mode... this feels like mythic+ in WoW or Greaterrift Level 110+ in diablo3.. if one person make a small mistake its autowipe.. Specialy in ruins of nuowu where the DPS check is unethical.

    Its like going in a school class, the teacher say put your phones on silent... gues what... 1 out of 30 people miss it...

    Same in the cinema, dont drop the popcorn on the floor... there will be still 1 person that do it..


    Haveing a 100% scenario in any thing, no matter online game raids, or reallife is just speculation. there is no 100%... there always outliers...


    So goodluck find a group where 10/10 make no mistakes, or 20/20 make no mistakes or 14/14 or 11/11.. Not possible...

    whats the point haveing blade resonance buffs for revive? you have to use them for DPS or you cant finish the boss..

    The only way people cleared the raid is with Outgearing and/or bugging the Boss. (Same way people cleared the Dahan, they bugged Dahan in the "tree" so his spin to win never moves outside), (Same way people cleared hidden boss in frost river path [before people outgeared the dungeon], they just bugged the boss so he drops poison outside of the arena...)


    Designing content arround "outgearing", "dps check" and "bugging/cheesing" the boss is a horrible design.

    some people already bugging the ice world boss, so he can still get attacked while in the minigame phase...

    Premise: ANY and I repeat ANY idea posted here will be ignored because GF is mainly here for localization, customer support, ecc. I'm not sure they get to call shots on balancing.

    Also soon enough there will be hard raids so I really doubt they would want to do many changes to normal raids anyway (why bother for something which will be obsolete in a blink of an eye).


    Said so, even if discussing this is futile, I feel like some of the points OP made make sense, especially if you just skip to the boss balance changes.


    Quote from WaifuJanna

    3rd boss:BUFF dmg: the lazers feels bugged, u can stay afk in them and get like 5% dmg lol -> buff the lazers! If u stay in the lazers u should get 40% dmg

    Those lasers really do nothing... why even bother adding that skill if it does nothing?


    Quote from WaifuJanna

    6th boss:Above 50% HP it should deal a bit more dmg, so people dont facetank, the bubble phase at 50% should get dmg increased a bit too, you should focus 100% on dodging and not cheesing dmg while getting hit by few bubbles.

    True, and the bubbles in the 50% phase do what? 15% damage each? basically nothing. it's just the pushback that's a bit annoying, but nobody risks their life in that phase.

    About the dps check: making a raid for 55GS is imho questionable in the first place. 55 means you only have half of the items from the 60 sets. It's like if they released another instance which at 65GS drops 90 equip....

    So for all I care I'm happy that it's at least hard for people which don't even have full dungeon equip...


    Quote from WaifuJanna

    not sure yet, the fight is fun and challanging - its fine for ilvl 65+

    Agree, it's fun and challenging and finally a boss which isn't just a dps check training dummy.

    Quote from WaifuJanna

    Ruins of Nuwou:


    NERF: For a normal mode the dps check is to scary, the difficulty from the dungeon should be the mechanics, and not "Lets cherry pick and only recruit people ilvl 70+ who has BIS items and play "meta build" to get high dps. -> Nerf the Boss HP by 10% -> lower the required DPS from 4100 to 3660.

    Couldn't they just bump the requirement to 70+ instead of nerfing it? Or if they really have to nerf it, I think that 10% HP nerf is a bit too much.

    Quote from WaifuJanna

    since thursday, i meet almost 100 different people that tried ruins and iceworld, and not just 1 time, 3-4 hours each day... i whispered some of them, they still not beaten them, me included.

    Weirdly enough, I also know hundred different people that downed it. Ice world doesn't even require some monstruous dps, it only requires people to read the manual and a few tries...

    Quote from WaifuJanna

    if one person make a small mistake its autowipe..

    I don't know which raids you've been in, but so far no boss have been able to down a player for one mistake. Obviously, you can get wiped by missing mechanics (like in Ice World), but that is intended design: we don't want people to just skip them or cheese them after all...

    Since this topic is about Nuowu, the only things that can possibly kill someone are the random dark circles or the poison. For the former, it gives three whole seconds for you to dodge. For the second, it gives you around three seconds to move away or sixty seconds for the healers to dispel you. In the two times I did it (one with my guildies, one with randoms), people only died when they took two tornardoes or two dark zones at once.



    As for the DPS requirements, as I said in the other thread, if you can't do it 10 man for some reasons, try doing it with more people: it is easier dps wise. From a 4k dps check, it gets down to 3.2k with 19 people! (beware that for some reasons, 13 people requires 4.2k dps)

    And don't tell me that with 65 gear score you can't reach 3.2k dps...


    And if you really, really, really, can't down it. There are still elixirs and foods that give a non-negligent boost to your survivability and damage.


    Note:

    Quote from WaifuJanna

    2nd boss:NERF dmg: its a bit to much, that if one person(tank) doesnt know and play the mechanic perfectly the whole group haveing a super hard time.

    Well, yeah... that's the purpose of a mechanic. It gives you enough leeway for you to not get insta killed, but also not lenient enough to ignore it... A bullshìt mechanic would be something like Dahan lightnings dealing 80% of your health....



    Please don't attempt the upcoming extremes Janna you're about to hurt yourself :)
    Its supposed to be a challenge so i can't wait for you to cry about that difficulty ♥

    Jade palace does not need nerfs. It was easily clearable on the first day even by mediocre groups. No struggles whatsoever. I agree that Ruins DPS check is a bit high considering the gear that is being asked when compared to Normal Jade Palace / Ice World. I like the difficulty and agree that it should not be nerfed but I think it is easy to see that it is not exactly in line with the others. There might be some scaling fuckery going on since the boss loses HP when going from 13 to 14 people.

    na the Wu Ye Yu dungeon on extreme will be fun. its straight forward mechanics, not chaotic stuff like Nuowu.

    Without knowing what the exteme mode in Wu Ye Yu is . but i would predict its easyer then Normal Nuowu.

    Quote from VanillaNya

    Jade palace does not need nerfs. It was easily clearable on the first day even by mediocre groups. No struggles whatsoever. I agree that Ruins DPS check is a bit high considering the gear that is being asked when compared to Normal Jade Palace / Ice World. I like the difficulty and agree that it should not be nerfed but I think it is easy to see that it is not exactly in line with the others. There might be some scaling fuckery going on since the boss loses HP when going from 13 to 14 people.

    if they dont nerf it they shoult atlead make Ice world and ruins of uwu recommended item level 70+ and not 65+...

    Quote from WaifuJanna
    Quote from VanillaNya

    Jade palace does not need nerfs. It was easily clearable on the first day even by mediocre groups. No struggles whatsoever. I agree that Ruins DPS check is a bit high considering the gear that is being asked when compared to Normal Jade Palace / Ice World. I like the difficulty and agree that it should not be nerfed but I think it is easy to see that it is not exactly in line with the others. There might be some scaling fuckery going on since the boss loses HP when going from 13 to 14 people.

    if they dont nerf it they shoult atlead make Ice world and ruins of uwu recommended item level 70+ and not 65+...

    Ice World is fine the way it is for 65. The DPS check isn't that tight, it's supposed to be an introduction to coordinated team mechanics and it works fine in that regard. Correctly executing mechanics should be a part of normal modes too.


    With ruins there is two problems. The first problem is that the scaling is simply broken. If you go inside and watch the HP scale up, from what I remember, it barely or not at all scales between 10-12 players, then goes up about 6 million HP, from 13 Million to 19 Million, when the 13th player enters, and then back DOWN to 18.5 when the 14th enters. And from what others have said, the average DPS required goes further down as you approach 20 players. This is simply a bug and might partially be the reason why ruins DPS check feels so tight. It does not scale properly and depending on your composition you will have a very different experience. Obviously that should be fixed.


    The second problem is that the swapping mechanic is a) Very melee unfriendly in general, and b) the Light Qi debuff is unresponsive as fuck (I don't know if this is supposed to be a mechanic or not). While dark runs out in the same tick you swap to the light side, the light qi debuff will often refresh another 2-3 times before disappearing. This is especially detrimental on tanks who get hit like fucking trucks from extra light qi stacks.


    I think if those two issues were fixed, ruins would be much more in line with Ice World.


    tl;dr: Ruins needs bugfixes and consistent scaling, not flat HP nerfs. Together with it being a melee unfriendly fight, your experience in it can vary wildly depending on your comp. If you want fights to be winnable everytime, in pugs, or in lower gear, that is ultimately what Easy mode is for. If your group fails, as you say, from technical or concentration issues, that is ultimately a group issue, not an issue with the fight.

    Depending on how/where you tank it.... it's not that big of an issue or less of an issue. The tank can run the boss from one side to the other and people can follow it to cleanse with the tank, or you can tank it in the middle. I think it's a matter of adjusting for what type of group you're working with.


    Also with 10 people we managed to clear with an average DPS of 3.68 1j5T0q7.png


    And this is like... assuming the tank isn't actually doing any real damage (which people seem to forget is actually possible).


    I think it's funny that people are actually complaining about reaper instead of ice world, as I found it the far easier of the two raids between this and ice world. Overall though I found both raids a fun challenge. I think it also emphasises that big DPS numbers aren't more important than actually doing the mechanic, because no matter how big your number is, you'll die if you don't disengage to do the mechanic properly, and the DPS of a corpse is 0.


    I see many many people freaking out in both of these raids about meeting a DPS check they never even get to see, because they spend far more of their time wiping to mechanics trying to squeeze out an extra 200 DPS. I think if people slowed down and actually just relaxed and did what they were supposed to, cleanse stacks, break people out of ice, etc. they'd probably find these raids to be a lot easier than they think.



    In terms of balance.... I think every game I can think of has a difficulty curve. You start out learning to work the camera and move on to using skills, until some day you are clearing complex scenarios using the knowledge you have learned up to that point. I finally feel like we are getting to the point of using that knowledge. I genuinely live for the day I find a raid that my raid group cannot clear on the first try.


    One more thing.... Once upon a time, normals were hard. Now they are easy. Then hards were hard. Now they are easy. Then secret bosses were hard. Now they are easy. If more casual players find that these raids are too hard, and they don't want to learn to do the mechanics or upgrade their gear, or do their rotation properly, whatever, they can always wait until it gets easier.


    Furthermore, and I'm sure some people will think this is super elitist of me, but I think at a certain point, being a casual player means accepting that you aren't going to be the first person to clear all the new content on the first day it's released. You'll still get to clear it some day, but if you aren't willing to put in the effort to do so, why do you magically expect to be able to achieve what other people work so hard for?


    Why would anyone learn their class, or their rotation, or learn the mechanics, or learn how to heal, or learn how to do anything properly, if everything could be cleared without ever needing to put in the effort to do anything at all? I don't think they would. I don't parse for my own health. I don't raid for my own health. I don't practice healing for my own health (irl c;). I do it because I picked a class I enjoy playing and I like being successful and good at it, and that is the effort that is required of me to do so. Yeah this is a game and something people do for fun. It shouldn't be a job, but if you don't even want to practice or ever want to improve or you don't find getting better or raiding fun, then why are you even here? You could flip a coin with no effort required if you wanted a 100% RNG 50% chance to succeed.

    u got carried by the 4,8k dps guy.. replace that guy with a normal 3k dps player and then try again :)


    Ice world is a mechanic/concentration thing. basically 4 People need to know what they do (trials) + tank, the other 5 can be random people who only know the minigame phase. ( which u can cheese with dmg reduction spell if u are bad at jumping)


    in Nuowu every single person needs to perform (debuff placement, stack removing, paddling between blue and dark clouds).

    Regardless of his damage. The average for the entire group is 3.68.


    Here's another run we did where everyone averaged 3.64k DPS on a 15 man group.

    eKEgduZ.png


    Here's another clear. This one averages 3.87k DPS

    MlTaaY6.png




    Not everyone has to pull ungodly DPS. Plenty of players can pull a reasonable amount of DPS in the typical "casual" group, and someone will usually end up doing enough to make up for it. In the most average of all cases everyone could pull 3.68k and you could clear it like that... or a couple people could pull 4k+ and some people could pull around 3k and you could still clear it like that.



    Quote from WaifuJanna

    in Nuowu every single person needs to perform (debuff placement, stack removing, paddling between blue and dark clouds).

    Yes.

    Every person in this game should be more than capable of moving.

    Janna, i have to agree with you only on one account in this matter, Casual players are 90% (or more) of the populations of MMOs, and are what keeps the MMO genra alive. Almost all hardcore MMOs are dead for a reason [despite the missinformation some people try to spread].


    HOWEVER this dungeons and raids are nothing special! They just require a bit of cooperation. Yes it might take u 3-4 hours to down them, its perfectly normal its how it should be anyway. Raids that every single person can down in 9 minutes are no fun. Why would I or anyone else want to wait weeks for something that i can finish 1st try in 9-11 minutes and then just keep doing the same lackluster content, this is not what would make the game casual, its what would result in the complete lack of content and the death of the game as a result...why would someone do all the dailies and everything else in between just so they can spend 1h once a week clearing lackluster content?


    Dificulty has nothing to do with it at this point in time, as we are consuming content as it gets added. For the moment this raids are the highest dificulty available, for the past weeks everyone has been clearing Palace without a problem with randoms or not. Might have been a challange for the majority of people when it got released but its most definetly not a challenge now. Same will happen with the UwU and with Ice, as new content gets added people overgear and understand the content better so it becomes easier to complete.


    If for some reason u dont want to spend 1-2-3 hours learning the new content [WHICH is a very CASUAL amount of time to spend to learn something], you can always wait 1-2 weeks and then have a very easy time when everyone knows exactly what to do and overgear the content.


    Extreme content is supposed to be a "permanent" kind of challenge as gear is scalled down to make sure the "challenge" is still there regardless of the current gear. The rewards from Extreme mode are general rewards as well to match the kind of content it is. Comparing apples and pears will get us nowhere.


    I'll use WoW as an example because everyone knows it, hardcore content used to be the content like in vanila WoW (and no i dont mean stuff like classic wow where everyone knew exactly what to do), when u had no raid assist and u learnt mechanics by wiping and doing it again and again and again, spending 20-30-40 hours doing the same raid over multiple days/weeks [and speding the insane amounts of time discussing mechanics and strategies]... SOLO is as casual friendly as it gets.

    When there is a problem, for one reason or another people seem to always look outwards.
    "Can't finish this content in 1 go, it must be the games fault, needs a nerf..." rather then try to focus on improving urself and learning to play ur class better as well as the mechanics involved.


    People that keep asking to make it easier and easier, because they care only about the "victory screen" rather then the content itself are the people that not only kill the game but ruin it for the rest of us that enjoy it as it is. Solo is a casual game, making content hardcore or braindead easy are both equally bad options.

    Thank you sir, hit the nail on the head.